Jesus' Immorality

How can you believe in someone who lied (John 7:8-10), told his followers to steal (Matthew 21:2-3), beat people with ropes because they were giving people Isreali money for their Roman money so that they could buy animals to sacrifice in accordice with Mosaic law that he claimed to believe in (John 2:15), and said noone could follow him unless they hate their entire family, violating the "fifth commandment", which he also claimed to believe in, making him a hypocrite (Luke 14:26)?

Do not tell me that I'm risking going to hell by not beliving in Jesus, because the preceding absolutly proves that he couldn't possibly have been God, the son of God, or anything more than human, so I'm not risking anything. On the other hand, if you're wrong in giving your life to Jesus (and I've proven you are), you've lost the only thing anyone has - this life.

My response is in Green:

You know on the surface it looks like you have an argument but if you really read the Bible and think about it your argument disappears. So you have not proven anything. In fact you have helped prove that the Bible is true. See if an bunch of guys just got together and wrote it to fool the world they would have made sure these types of things were not in it. The fact that they are in it just shows that God is very comfortable with Who He is and we must use our heads and our hearts to understand the scriptures.

(John 7:8-10 NIV) You go to the Feast. I am not yet going up to this Feast, because for me the right time has not yet come." {9} Having said this, he stayed in Galilee. {10} However, after his brothers had left for the Feast, he went also, not publicly, but in secret. Here is what I am talking about if you read this without thinking about it then you come away with the thought that Jesus lied but if you think about what it says there is no problem. Jesus did not want to go with them to the feast because people were looking for Him to become King (which is what they thought the Messiah was going to do). If you would read this in context with the verses before it, it will make more sense: (John 7:1-6 NIV) After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. {2} But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, {3} Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. {4} No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." {5} For even his own brothers did not believe in him. {6} Therefore Jesus told them, "The right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right." See Jesus' brothers wanted Him to go public, they wanted Him to set up His kingdom.

Now if you take it all in context you see that Jesus is telling His brothers that He does not want to go to the feast with them because it is not His time. After they leave He goes to the feast alone in secret. Notice in verse 8 Jesus does not say He is not going to the feast just that He is not 'yet' going, or in other words not with them. There is no lie here.

Let's say that you and I and two other people are going to the movie. You say it is time to go and I tell you that I am not going yet. You leave and 10 minutes later I get in my car and go. Have I lied to you? Of course not and neither did Jesus lie to His brothers.

(Matthew 21:1-3 NIV) As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, {2} saying to them, "Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. {3} If anyone says anything to you, tell him that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away." Again on the surface I can understand your point, but you have to look at this in context. First of all God is the one who provided for this donkey to be there at the appointed time. He also knew that the owner would have no problem with Jesus using the donkey. If you look at a parallel passage you will see this is exactly what happened: (Luke 19:32-34 NIV) Those who were sent ahead went and found it just as he had told them. {33} As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, "Why are you untying the colt?" {34} They replied, "The Lord needs it."

(John 2:13-16 NIV) When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. {14} In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. {15} So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. {16} To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!" I quoted more verses then you since again you need the context. You say that this is a problem because these poor people are just doing what the Mosaic law demanded of them. Wrong!

You have to understand some background here to understand what was going on. Yes the common people did have to come and bring animals to sacrifice according to Mosaic law and they had to pay the temple tax which had to be paid in Hebrew money not Roman money, but that was not the problem. If you look at historical literature from this time period you will find that there was great corruption. What was going on was the poor people were being fleeced and Jesus did not like it. It made God's house a market and a den of thieves.

One of the things that happened is that people had to bring a lamb to be sacrificed that was without blemish. Well who got to decide if the lamb a person brought was good enough or not? The Priest did. The Priests had a racket going. They would tell a person who had traveled for two days that there was something wrong with the lamb they had brought. They would tell them that it was okay, they could go into the outer court and buy one that was certified without blemish. Then the priest would take the 'blemished' lamb away. Later it would be sold as certified 'unblemished' to the next person who came with their offering. The people could not object because you had to have a priest make the sacrifice for you. This scam was done with sheep and doves. Doves were the offering for poor people who could not afford to bring a lamb.

The temple tax was the same way. You could not get the regulation money any place except at the temple, so the money changers were charging outrageous commissions to change the people's money.

That is why Jesus chased them out. He was standing up for His Father and for the poor people who were trying to do what was required of them by law.

(Luke 14:25-27 NIV) Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: {26} "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple. {27} And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Once again you need to look at this in context of what Jesus is saying. He is not violating the 5th commandment. He is trying to tell people that God has to come first, if they love their family or the world or even themselves more than God then they cannot follow Him. Look at the parallel passage for this one too: (Matthew 10:32-36 NIV) "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. {33} But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. {34} "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. {35} For I have come to turn "'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law-- {36} a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' Jesus was talking to the crowds that were following Him. He was trying to tell them that there is a price to pay for discipleship. There is still a price to pay today. People will make fun of you, people will turn their backs on you, hate you, disown you, etc... If a person is not willing to take that they can't be a disciple. That is what He means by turning a man against his father, etc... If you love your comfort or your family more than God then you will not be able to follow Him when the times get rough.

He was not telling them not to honor their Fathers and Mothers, which would have been against the commandments, He was telling them that they had to choose between God and the world.

Sorry your arguments don't hold water. You told me not to tell you that you are at risk of going to hell for not believing in Jesus. Okay, I won't tell you that you are at risk of going to hell. See, to be at risk would mean that it is merely a possibility. That is not true, it is a guarantee, if you don't believe in Jesus you WILL go to hell. I did not say that He did: (John 14:6 NIV) Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

You know you have not proven anything to me, but let's just say that you had. Let's say that you proved to me that there is no God. I would still not have lost anything. I have lived the other way and I am much more happy now then I ever was then. I would never go back to a life of sin, no matter what. I also know that God is real and my hope is not in this world but in the world to come. You should really think about that. If I am wrong I have lost nothing, if you are wrong you will lose everything.

Why not ask God to open your eyes and help you understand? Like I said I know that my redeemer lives and one day I will see Him face to face. You know one day you will see Him face to face too. Whether you believe in Him or not.

Ralph

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