You are putting lives at risk by convincing people not to seek the appropriate treatment!

Dear Ralph,

I visited your site and had a couple of questions for you concerning your condemnation of psychology and counseling. Quotes taken from your site:

"One thing all of these new "Christian" programs have in common is that they preach a different gospel. They preach that the person has to do something to allow God to help them. Christ is not sufficient, the person has to assist or they will never heal, or be able to understand God or His love for them."

Why is it all right for people to go to medical doctors then? Should we suffer physically waiting for God to perform a medical miracle?

"Many times the Christian Psychology professionals will dress up their practice of psychology in Christian terms but it is still secular psychology which was invented by godless men such as Freud, Maslow, Jung, and Rogers. They denied God and built psychology on theories which were a hundred and eighty degrees in opposition to God's word."

And much of our understanding of medicine, mathematics, and numerous other sciences came from the works of Greek pagans and the Islamic peoples. Old Testament writers quoted pagan philosophers. This is in keeping with general revelation. Perhaps I may suggest the works of St. Thomas Aquinas regarding the integration of faith and learning?

"The bottom line is this: God says we are all sinners and psychology says we are all victims. Again both views can't be right."

I would be greatly interested in hearing what respectable psychologist stated that we are all victims and what research has been conducted to support your statement. If you could provide me with references to this SPECIFIC point, I would be much obliged.

"Let's look at whether God thinks He has given us all we need to deal with the issues of life or if He wants us to seek outside advice as we do with medical problems."

So you are saying that medical problems can be dealt with by the reason of man, but psychological problems cannot. Can you support this distinction?

"Nor am I saying that there is never a physical reason for depression which can and should be treated by a doctor."

You are thus stating that known physical reasons can influence emotional states. This implies a continuity between the "mind" and "body". This sharply conflicts with your dualism between medical and psychological treatment. Yet you claim that if a physical cause cannot be found, the depression is a result of spiritual factors. Years ago medicine could not detect these physical causes. Does this mean they did not exist before they could be detected? Does this mean that because medicine is not advanced enough to detect certain physical causes now that these do not also exist?

Also, I am acquainted with the arguments proposed by the "Biblical" counseling movement. Please do not repute my arguments simply by referring me to a book written by Jay Adams or another figure in that field, or any outdated piece of literature. If you are planning to make such drastic arguments on a public site, you must be able to answer for them.

I write not because I believe that I will convince you to change your views but in the interest of those whose lives you are putting at risk by convincing them not to seek the appropriate treatment for their problems. While sin is obviously at the root of all problems in this world, this does not mean that repenting of our sins will solve all problems. The creation itself has been corrupted by the fall, but acknowledging that we are sinners does not eliminate disease or other such ills.

If you do nothing else, I ask you to post my email on your "visitor responses" page. You have posted a great deal of responses condemning the Christian faith, so I ask you to at least post an educated letter so that people can see both sides of this issue.

My response is in Green:

I will quote from books, but not Jay Adams's book. I can defend my position but I will do it by quoting experts. You gave absolutely no evidence in your message to me, other than your view. I won't do that, I will show you where I got my information from. You can either believe it or refuse to believe it, that is up to you. You will notice if you bother to check out the books that two are written by Christians and the other three were written by two non-Christians. All are or were either Psychologist or Psychiatrist.

I will pick up my conversation after the quotes:

The following is quoted from: Psychology Debunked - Author: Lisa and Ryan Bazler

Psychology's "conspiracy of silence" results from the absence of any established knowledge base in the field. Ten different therapists will diagnose and treat one problem ten different ways. Therapists base your treatment on their view of reality instead of on a proven psychological theory. Theories that are short-lived, conflicting and for the most part ignored add up to bad science. (Psychology Debunked page 15)

R. Christopher Barden, a psychologist, lawyer and president of the National Association for Consumer Protection in Mental Health Practices, says, "It is indeed shocking that many, if not most forms of psychotherapy currently offered to consumers are not supported by credible scientific evidence... Too many Americans do not realize that much of the mental health industry is little more than a national consumer fraud." (Psychology Debunked page 16)

To date, no one has been able to generate real evidence that professional psychology works. Psychology's own American Psychiatric Association (APA) has even admitted that research fails to prove psychology's effectiveness. (Psychology Debunked page 20)

Psychologist D. L. Rosenhan, professor of psychology and seven other normal people (that is, people with no perceived mental illness) feigned mental illness by complaining of hearing voices. They asked for psychiatric help and got it. After expressing truthful past experiences, the psychiatrists diagnosed them with schizophrenia and manic depression and admitted them to mental hospitals. (Psychology Debunked page 21)

William Kirk Kilpatrick, associate professor of educational psychology at Boston College, says: "Psychology and religion are competing faiths. If you seriously hold to one set of values, you will logically have to reject the other... True Christianity does not mix well with psychology. But the process is subtle and is rarely noticed." (Psychology Debunked page 126)

The following is quoted from: The Anti-Depressant Fact Book - Author: Dr. Peter R. Breggin

It is a mistake to view depressed feelings or even severely depressed feelings as a "disease." Depression, remember, is an emotional response to life. (The Anti-Depressant Fact Book page 16)

Depression is never defined by an objective physical finding, such as a blood test or brain scan. It is defined by the individual's personal suffering and especially by the depressed thoughts and feelings that the person expresses. In other words, if a person has depressed thoughts and feelings, the diagnosis of depression is made. Based on that alone, it makes little sense to view depressed feelings, or the emotional state of depression, as a disease or disorder. (The Anti-Depressant Fact Book page 18)

The following is quoted from: Your Drug May Be Your Problem - Author: Dr. Peter R. Breggin and David Cohen, Ph.D.

Consider the extraordinary reality. The human brain has more individual cells (neurons) than there are stars in the sky. Billions! And each neuron may have 10,000 or more connections (synapses) to other brain cells, creating a network with trillions of interconnections. In fact, the brain is considered to be the most complex organ in the entire universe. With its billions of neurons and trillions of synapses, it is more complex than the entire physical universe of planets, stars, and galaxies.

Scientists have well-developed ideas about how the physical universe works. They possess mathematical formulae for describing the various forces that control the relationships among physical entities from black holes to subatomic particles. All these forces also effect the human brain. However, the living processes of the brain add complexities unknown in the physical universe. Those trillions of interconnections between brain cells, for example, are mediated by hundreds of chemical messengers (neurotransmitters), as well as by hormones, proteins, tiny ions such as sodium and potassium, and other substances. We have limited knowledge about how a few of these chemical messengers work but little or no idea as to how they combine to produce brain function. (Your Drug May Be Your Problem page 5)

The following is quoted from Manufacturing Victims - Author: Dr. Tana Dineen

False interpretations have their most profound effect when they are expressed subtly as indirect suggestions originating in the psychologist's own belief's and values.

These values which lie at the core of most of the false interpretations can be seen in the statements of psychologist who seem highly professional, respectable and even rational. For instance:

Among women, incest is so common as to be an epidemic. Incest is easily the greatest single underlying reason why women seek therapy and other treatments.

More than half of all women are survivors of childhood sexual trauma... it does not have to involve touch... Incest can occur through words, sounds, or even exposure of the child to sights or acts that are sexual but do not involve her.

Just as in ancient times when all roads led to Rome, now all interpretive paths lead to the same core cause; that is, the person is not in control, is damaged internally and has someone else to blame. (Quoted from Manufacturing Victims by psychologist Dr. Tana Dineen)

Well there you have expert evaluation of the psychology industry. I did not just pull my views out of thin air. I have done a lot of study on this matter. These quotes can in no way give all the facts or evidence, you need to read these books for yourself.

But let me use the book that I give the most credence to, the Bible:

(Jeremiah 17:5-9 NIV) [5] This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD. [6] He will be like a bush in the wastelands; he will not see prosperity when it comes. He will dwell in the parched places of the desert, in a salt land where no one lives. [7] "But blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in him. [8] He will be like a tree planted by the water that sends out its roots by the stream. It does not fear when heat comes; its leaves are always green. It has no worries in a year of drought and never fails to bear fruit." [9] The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

You keep asking me why Christians should go to medical doctors, as if medicine and psychology are on the same level. That is why I quoted from the books that I quoted from, to show you that it is not medicine and it is not even a true science. So there is no comparison between telling someone that they should not see a psychologist and telling people not to see a medical doctor.

(2 Peter 1:3 NIV) His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

Either God has given us everything we need for life or He is a liar, would you agree? If you agree then you have answered your own questions. How many of the messages on my suicide pages did you read? If you read many you would have seen a very common complaint in many of them. They have been on multiple drugs and in therapy for years and nothing helps. Hum, sounds like God knows what He is talking about does it?

I will post your message, I will post it on my Apologetics site. Let me quote from your message to me: "I write not because I believe that I will convince you to change your views but in the interest of those whose lives you are putting at risk by convincing them not to seek the appropriate treatment for their problems." You are wrong, and I won't recommend that anyone go see a person who will convince them they are a victim and not deal correctly with what the problem is. I do recommend that people see a medical doctor, but if no physical problem is found then they need to seek God. I won't change my mind or my message. I hope you will do some research and find out some facts for yourself. I have given you five good books to start with, I hope you will read them.

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