before/if you go to my site i advise you only go to the 7 Churches by adding /7Churches.html to the above url.you will be highly offended by the rest of my site,i'm sure.that's not to say 7 Churches won't offend you,but it'll let you know a little about how i feel on this subject.now i inform you what people mean when they ask how you how you can beleive in such evil (or however they ask it) . they mean all the death and murder commited by your "God" as well as ordered by him. does that clear it up for you?now i have a question for you.if your "God" and lord jesus christ want people to beleive in them,why don't they just hsow themselves?i don't beleive in the bible as a divinely inspired text.quoting from the bible does NOT convince those of us who require solid proof.i exist.i can physically feel and see myself.that is proof to me that i exist,not someone using words telling me i exist.do better. also i want to know what you think about people who have never nor will ever know about your "God" and jesus christ.a majority of those people lead good lives.do you believe that all of those people are going to go to hell? I dare you to even attempt to rationally and logically answer that one.
My response is in Green:
Thanks for visiting my site and for signing my guestbook. Also thanks for warning me about your web site, but you didn't need to. I visited your whole web site and it did not offend me. It made me sad that you are so upset about someone who according to you does not even exist. Of course without religion where would Marilyn Manson be, right?
Yes it is hard to discuss things like this with people like you. I don't mean anything mean by that, but on the one hand you claim that I am a simple minded fool because there is no God. Then on the other hand you say the reason people ask me how I can believe is such evil (my religion) is because my "God" has committed or ordered the murder of so many innocent people. Which way is it. If there is no God then of course you should agree He could not have done anything, right? If there is a God, like I believe, then you are all wrong, right? So how am I to answer your question? I can only answer from my own perspective and that is that God is alive and He is the creator of every thing including Mankind.
I will try my best not to quote any scripture to you, since you seem to have such a problem with it. I will rationally and logically explain my point of view. Again I have to make some assumptions because your questions are so open ended. First assumption, I got this impression from your page; you think of Christians as Catholic. I am not Catholic and to be honest I disagree with a lot of what they teach. I will agree that many people have been killed in the Name of Jesus and the Name of God. However, you can't just say because of that God is bad or that religion is bad. You have to first do a little study and find out what the Christian religion thinks of people killing other people. We (Christians) believe it is wrong!!! When a person who claims to be a Christian kills an abortion doctor, it is wrong. It is a sin and it shows that the person is NOT following the Christian religion.
On your page you have a lot of Satanism graphics, etc... So I will assume that you are a Satanist (yeah I know you don't believe in or worship Satan/the devil either). Now if I am right about you being a Satanist, how do you feel when all Satanist are portrayed as worshipping Satan and sacrificing children? You know there are some very well documented incidents where a group of people who claimed to be Satanist did do just that. Now I am sure you will say that they were not really Satanist, they were just crazy people. You are probably right, but are you beginning to see my point? Just change the names and you have defended the real Christians too.
You say that you exist and you won't believe anything that you can't see. Why doesn't God just come show Himself to you? Well He could do that and believe it or not one day He will, but He requires us to have faith. He could also make all of us worship Him and again one day He will, but if He did that now what would it mean? Nothing!! If we have no choice then we are slaves. If you don't believe in God then where did we all come from? Evolution? Please don't tell me you believe that, not after telling me you have to see to believe. There is much more proof in the Bible than there is in Evolution. Do the math. Do you have any idea what the chances are on just one cell coming into existence by random chance? Now multiply that number by the billions of different cells it takes to make up a living human/animal. Wow if you believe that you have more faith than I have ever thought of having. I just don't have enough faith to believe that two gases came together a zillion years ago and now here I am. I can enjoy music (sorry I don't call Marilyn Manson music), order pizza over my cell phone and type messages to you on a computer, and it all started by to inert gases. Wow, and of course I am to believe that without any proof, because, well you know we have not advanced far enough yet to be able to prove it. Maybe after another zillion years we will be able to prove we came from two inert gases.
Now to get to what I think was the best question you asked. What happens to all those people who have never heard of God or Jesus Christ? It is hard to explain without upsetting you and quoting from the Bible. Paul addressed this very point, but here goes. I believe that God put in every persons heart several things. First is the knowledge that they are immortal. Yeah that is right, I believe you are just as immortal as I am. The problem is where you will spend eternity, but that is another discussion altogether. Next He put the knowledge of a superior being in everyone's heart. Why else does every society which has ever existed looked for God, in one way or another? Even you have, I read it on your page, 'we are our own gods.' Look at people who believe in reincarnation. They claim that they don't believe in God, yet, they claim if you live a bad life now you will come back as a victim. Who says?? Who decides who has to be victims and who gets to have a good life next? Must be someone in charge!
Sorry I got side tracked. My point is that people can look at nature and at each other and see God. They might not know Who He is, but they can know that He does exist. God loves all humans and He has enough grace to give to all of us. For those who try to know Him, even if they have never heard about Him or Jesus, His grace will cover them. No I don't believe they go to hell. This might surprise you too, but I think there are different levels of punishment in hell. I don't believe that the person who never heard of God, but did not even try to obey what they knew in their heart, will be judged the same way someone who has heard and rejected will be judged. The more you know the more you have to answer for. I am sure you have heard the saying, ignorance of the law is no excuse, well thank God He does not judge like that. I would love to discuss this with you further, but this is getting to be pretty long.
thank you for answering,and so promptly at that.i also didn't mention that you might like pseudo-serenity.did you? now on to the response.
in my writing i use a combination of personal experience,metaphor,shock value and the world around me,ex;sweet solution was in both by the fatal beating of a gay man in texas,and the "christians" who protested his funeral.some others use metaphor like in lower your hand.i wrote as if i was talking to jesus.i'd also like to state now that i don't hate all christian,christianity or you.could i do without christianity?yes.could i do without christians?i have friends and family who are christians.if doing without christians meant doing without them,then no.could i do without you?i don't know you.now i've gotten off track,somewhat.i'm not upset about someone i don't believe in.i hope i've cleared that up.
not that i feel i should stick up for marilyn manson,and i'm not being rude even though it might come off like that without telling you first(seeing you can't hear me say it)but...without marilyn manson christians (you know the ones i'm talkin' about) would just find someone else to blame,for whatever they feel like.
we're not saying that we believe he exists and therefore commited yadda yadda yadda. we're wondering how so many people can believe in "God" when it's right in the bible, your holy scripture, god commiting yadda yadda yadda giving orders for someone else to yadda yadda yadda.also,i don't believe you to be a simple minded fool.if you accept on blind faith what you believe,then yes ,in a way,that is what i believe.if you have questioned why you believe what you believe,and have come to the conclusion that that is what you want to believe,then no.that's not what i believe.
i had to check my page for that one.i suppose you mean about the exorcisms?that was an example of the measures certain "christians" will take.using scare tactics."god hates fags" "burn in hell" "burn in hell for all eternity" "eternal damnation" .the exorcism thing is an observation i made that day.you might even agree with me on that one.
i'm not saying anything about supposed "christians" killing in god and jesus' names.you probably saw that above.i'm talking about bible scripture.
i know that on my page,i don't make it clear that i don't talk about all christians.i probably should make it clear so people don't think that.i thought about it before,now i think i'll do it.i hope i've cleared that up. the chance of that randomly happening?slim.do i believe it?no. i don't believe anything until it's been proven to me.meaning i believe it's been proven to me.
you keep bringing up marilyn manson.i know,i know,there's a few things about and of him on my site.i wasn't going to do that,but i found some stuff i liked.at first i didn't think i had anything on my site to do with him.then i realised,when i looked at my most recent picture on there,that lo and behold,i was wearing a mm t-shirt.oh well.but whether you like him or not,you have to admit that america has created god in the form of television.look at the couch potatoes.now there is a new god,the internet.technology is taking over the weak of mind.if were not careful,it will take over the world.anton lavey wrote a nice little essay on god being in the tv.
i don't expect you to believe anything.maybe in the next twenty years,there might be a G.U.T. (grand universal theory). except for those that find themselves to be gods,i believe all the rest aren't ready to live without thinking they're being taken care of.no offence.also,even if they look for a god and find one.who's to say it would be the same god you worship and jesus,and if not,what then?
i beleive in reincarnation.i don't believe that i pay for my sins in my next life.if we do,perhaps it is because when we leave our bodies we are much more wiser and sane.free from the abberations of life as we live it now,and therefore decide to learn a lesson in our next life.do i believe that?no,it hasn't been proven to me.my point?the someone in charge could be ourselves. just because i know of christ and have followed before in my life,and have since renounced him.does that mean that i'm forever doomed?just because i chose to follow what i felt to be true?let's say that at the last minute,god and jesus show their faces.then i realise they are real,is it too late to repent and not be punished?most christians think so.just because i won't believe in what cannot be proven to me.you seem to have a unique view.what do you think?by the way you did a good job answering that question.that's the first time i ever got an intelligent answer on that one.
Thank you for writing me back too. I enjoy a good discussion. I want to thank you for your attitude. I get a lot of people who think it is fun to try to intimidate me because I am a Christian. So they use a lot of four letter words. If they bothered to read my page they would know that I don't intimidate easily, I have seen and heard it all in my past. It is refreshing to discuss things with someone who seems straight forward and considerate. Thank you.
You say you don't mean to be talking about all Christians. Okay, but you have to admit when you say Christians it pretty well covers all of us. Now I will be the first person to tell you that there are a lot of people who call themselves Christian who don't even believe in Jesus Christ. Go figure.
I may jump around a little in my response, I hope you don't mind. Like I said in my last message I made a few assumptions. One assumption I made was that you came to my site from the link on the Marilyn Manson site. If you did not then you might be surprised to know that the Official Marilyn Manson site (the church) linked to my site. I am sure it was to ridicule my faith, but hey that is okay. The other reason I made that assumption was the picture on your site labeled "my sentiments exactly" I am sure you know the one I am talking about. But none of that really matters as far as our discussion.
I want to cover some of the short subjects before I launch into the main subjects if that is okay. I had trouble telling whether you believe evolution or not. On the one hand you said you don't believe everything happened by random actions, because you don't have proof, but then you said you do believe because it has been proved to you. If I misunderstood, I am sorry. If you did mean it has been proven to you, I would sure like to know how that happened. It is all a theory which has some very big holes. Even many of the people who teach it admit that the possibility of it being true are slim. Anyway I would love to hear the evidence that proved it to you. If I misunderstood, I am sorry.
Reincarnation fascinates me. I just don't understand how that can happen without a superior being. You must believe in a soul, or other whatever you want to call it, that enters another unborn baby. Where did that soul or whatever come from? What are the rules?? Why would a person choose to be a victim in their next life?? I know you don't believe what I do, but go with me on this for a moment. One reason people believe in reincarnation is that they can have visions of past lives. Now if I am right (that is Christians) and there is a fallen angel named Satan and he has many legions of demons (also fallen angels) with him. What would stop them from telling people about past events, after all they would have been present and would know all the facts. I will give you another example, I can't remember what the correct name for this is, but there is a study the government has been involved in. They have people who try to invision what is going on at a distant location. Often these people can do so, and it is proved later by people who were at the location these people described. Again, that makes sense to me, since demons can give those visions to people. My point is that I can believe that people have very real experiences, but I explain those experiences much differently than others do.
You talked about the TV being a god to many people. I agree. There are a lot of gods in this world. I still won't quote scripture to you, but that is what God was talking about when He said we are not to have any other gods before Him. He did not mean that there are other lesser gods, He was talking about anything that is more important to us than He is. No matter what that might be. It could be another person, the TV, food, sex, you name it.
Okay, I think I covered most of the side issues. I thought you might be talking about the Old Testament when you talked about God killing people and ordering people to be killed. This is a hard issue. Don't get me wrong it is not hard for me because I have studied the Bible and I think I understand, but people who refuse to believe who God is are going to have problems with it. I will try my best to explain, but I will tell you up front I can't do it justice in one short message. (well maybe not too short)
Well first you need to understand who I believe God is. I believe He is the creator of everything we know. I believe He has existed forever and will exist for ever to come. He created us out of nothing. He gave us a soul which will never die. He also gave us free choice to do what is right or what is wrong, to believe in Him or to not believe in Him. Sin was not in mans (meaning men and women) until they sinned in the garden of Eden. Once they sinned God, who is holy, demanded that the sin be paid for by death. But He loved us enough that He sent His Son to die for us. Okay there in a very small nut shell is the ground work.
Now since God is the creator, He does not have to answer for anything He does. If you raised dogs for a living and one litter turned out to be mean and kept biting you, would anyone blame you for destroying them?? We humans have such a high reguard for ourselves that we think God has no right to do with us as He sees fit. He sent His Son to die for us so that we could spend eternity with Him, then He allows us to choice whether to believe or not. That is all we have to do, believe. Why should He not punish those who refuse?
Okay back to the main point, what about the people in the Bible who were destroyed by God or His order. I will assume since you asked that question that you know at least some of the Bible stories. God chose the Jews (Israelite) as His people. Why? Well it was so that He could show all people His nature through them. He gave them everything. He provided for them. Time and time again He helped them, and time and time again they would turn their backs on Him. They were to be His show case to the world, so that the world would know Him. They did a bad job, and the other nations would not listen either.
Let's look at the time of the exodus when God brought the Israelite out of Egypt. Yes He told them to kill every living thing in some of the towns they attacked. But you have to look at why He told them that. He told them that because these people had rejected Him and were worshiping idols. He could have destroyed them Himself, but He told the Israelite to do it. It was as a test to see if they would follow His orders (which they seldom did) and because He knew (He told them this) that if they left any of them alive they (the Israelite) would end up being corrupted by those other people and would start also worshiping idols. Sure enough it happened.
God's judgment seems pretty tough, but if you look at it this way it might help you understand. I believe God was making a point. He had told everyone what He expected of them, by punishing some people He was trying to show others not to do the same things. Did it work? Not for a lot of people. Going back to what I said before, God really does not have to answer to us for what He does. We are much lower to Him than the dogs are to us. It is not something people like to think about, but it is true. We are arrogant enough to think that we can do what we choose and not have to answer to anyone, but boy let someone cross us and see how fast we want to punish them.
You asked my view of whether you are doomed because of your knowing Jesus and then turning your back. Again this is a hard question. On the one hand if you truly know that Jesus is God's Son and you reject Him then yes I think you are doomed. However, you claim that you don't believe in God, so my answer is that it is not too late yet. What I mean by that is, if you die without ever believing then you are doomed, period, but until that happens I believe you still have a chance. You said, if God or Jesus came and stood in front of you, you would believe. Well I don't think that is going to happen, but if you ever decide to believe then no I don't think your past will stand in the way.
Wow, sorry this got to be so long, but I want to give you an honest answer to your questions and that takes some explaining. I am sure I did not cover everything. I just want you to know I won't run away from any questions, but I do get side tracked sometimes.
Take care and I hope you hear from you again soon.
E-Mail Ralph (whose comments are in green)
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