I will use logic to show you are wrong.

The first part of this dicussion can be read here: "I found some statements of yours I greatly disagree with."

I think that your interpretation of scripture contradicts many other verses, etc. However, it is extremely difficult to change someone's interpretation. As this is so, I will try to use logic more than scripture at this point to defend my position.

We were undeserving of God's grace in the first place. How, then, can we undeserve God's grace to the point of not being granted it any longer? This does not make sense to say that we our undeserving of something can remove it from us, when we undeserved it before He gave it to us.

Also, what sin(s) would justify our removal from God's grace? The Bible is clear that not only is no sin greater than another, but that once you sin one way, you have sinned in ALL ways. So if I steal a quarter from my sister, I have sinned just as greatly as if I killed my father. Since none of us is perfect, how can any of us be seperated from God's grace and not others?

My response is in Green:

I am sorry you chose not to respond to any of my questions. I am also sorry that you decided not to use Scripture to back up your position.

I will use both logic and Scripture and I will repeat once more a couple of questions I asked you before. Let's start with the questions.

Do you plan on seeing Ananias and Sapphira in heaven? What about Judas? This is a simple, straight forward question. Why won't you answer it? My interpretation of Scripture has nothing to do with your answer to these two questions.

You claim that many passages of Scripture contradict my interpretation of Scripture, but you don't bother to show them to me. God's word does not contradict itself. Our interpretations might but God's word does not. I say that so that you will realize that if your interpretation of certain Scriptures seems to be contradicted also, then you have the same problem you seem to think I have.

There are many passages which say that anyone who is in Christ Jesus will never die, and is eternally secure. I don't deny that at all. The problem comes with the idea that once a person has been forgiven of their sins and started following Christ that they can never decide to no longer follow Him, or if they do it does not mean anything. My point is this, yes anyone who is in Christ Jesus is eternally secure, but those who are not in Christ Jesus are not secure. You believe that once in Christ Jesus you can never be out again, I say you can. I have given you many passages which show this, but you don't reply to them.

Okay, then lets address what you said this time. You say we were undeserving of God's grace to start with. I will agree with that. Would you agree that we only obtain that grace through faith? If so, then we agree that through our faith in Jesus Christ we were granted undeserved grace and forgiveness of our sins. Where we disagree is the next point. You say how can we ever un-deserve that grace in the future. Remember how we said we obtained the grace? By faith, what if we no longer remain in the faith? (1 Corinthians 15:2 NIV) By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. That verse might seem familiar to you, I used it in one of our other conversations. If we hold firmly, shows action on our part, otherwise we have believed in vain. Tell me how do you interpret that verse?

You keep asking what sins would justify our removal from God's grace. I am sure you know my stance. My stance is that no sin can remove us from God's grace, but sin is a symptom of a deeper problem of our failing to continue in the faith. If we reject the gospel or if we quit following Christ then we remove ourselves from God's grace and put ourselves back under condemnation. Or if you will; we have believed in vain.

I get tired of answering the same questions over and over again. "How many sins is too many and cause a person to lose their salvation..." I have said over and over again that a person can't lose their salvation. They will not wake up one morning and wonder who stole it, or how it fell out of their pocket.

You made this statement: Since none of us is perfect, how can any of us be separated from God's grace and not others? Let me ask you the same question. How is it that we are all sinners, yet some of us will go to heaven and some (most of the world) won't? It is because of our faith in Jesus Christ and that is also the answer to your question!!

We are all born sinners and we have all sinned. God has offered us all salvation through His Son if we will only believe. That is fair and just. We all are undeserving, yet God loves us all and offers us all the same chance at salvation. Now let me ask you. If those who go to heaven, go there because of their faith in Jesus Christ and those who go to hell, go there because they don't believe in Jesus, then is that fair? Of course it is. That is God's requirement. But now let me ask you a further question of logic; if the person who placed his faith in Jesus Christ, quits believing and goes back to living the same kind of life the person who never believed, yet the one goes to heaven and the other does not, is that fair? Just from a straight logical stand point is that fair? No it is not. What is the difference between the two people? There is none. They are both unbelieving sinners!!

(2 Peter 2:20-21 NIV) [20] If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. [21] It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

How do you interpret that passage? Surly you know that knowing Jesus means being saved. The fact that he uses the idea of 'again entangled in it and overcome' shows that they were free from the corruption at some point. Notice his point, 'then turn their backs' which shows that this is something that they did, not just that they fell and committed a sin.

Not once have I had a OSAS believing person show me in Scripture where it says our sins are forgiven past, present and future. Maybe you should take a close look at this passage: (2 Peter 1:5-9 NIV) [5] For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; [6] and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; [7] and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. [8] For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [9] But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

Notice the last two words: past sins!! Logic should tell you what that means without the need for extensive interpretation. Read the Bible as a whole and take it as a whole. We are eternally secure as long as we follow Christ, but if we quit following Him we are lost. It is like getting on the right road, you are safe and on your way to your destination as long as you stay on that road, but if you take an exit and leave the road...

Why does it bother you so badly that we are saved by faith and we stand by faith? Why does it bother you to think that we must continue in our faith to stay safe and secure? God will never let us go if we are trying to hang on, but He won't force us to stay if we don't want to either.

Ralph

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