Conditional time salvation is a heresy. When you truly get born again you can do nothing to keep yourself saved. That Old King James Bible teaches eternal salvation from lid to lid and cover to cover. I didn't have a thing to do with my salvation.
My reply is below:
I would say thanks for writing, but since you called me a heretic I am not sure I want to thank you. I would dispute your claim that you had NOTHING to do with your salvation. If you truly did NOTHING then you are not saved. Let me try to show you what I mean.
When the earthquake freed Paul and Silas from jail and the jailer realized they had not escaped he asked them a question. He asked them what he had to do to be saved. What did they answer him? Did they say, nothing, or did they tell him what he must do? Let's look and see:
(Acts 16:30-31 NIV)  He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"  They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household."
They told him to believe, or in other words to have faith in Jesus Christ. If he had not believed he would not have been saved and neither would you. Faith is not a work, but it is required. If it weren't required then we would have universal salvation. That would mean that God would save every human being and no one would spend eternity in hell.
So let's see if that is true or not:
(Matthew 25:41 NIV) Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'
(Matthew 7:13-14 NIV)  "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.  But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
These passages make it clear that not everyone will spend eternity in heaven. Was it because Jesus did not die for their sins? No. So what is the reason? It will be because they did not place faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. So again, I repeat if you did NOTHING you are not saved.
Now I understand what you were trying to say, but that is my point, you are playing word games. You had to place faith in Jesus Christ to be saved, so why is it so hard to believe you have to continue to place faith in Him to remain saved? If placing faith in Jesus in the first place is not a work (which is clearly taught in the Bible) then why would continuing to have that faith be a work? It wouldn't!
Ralph you say you hate the doctrine of predestination, Then you hate the Bible which you don't know nothing about because you don't even quote out of the true Bible but you quote out of that Not Inspired Version which is a dead book. But anyhow In Romans 11 the Bible sais the Election hath obtained it and the rest were blinded and before you go on and say that was Israel well look at Acts 13 It states and as many those that were ordained to eternal life believed. I wouldn't give you a plug nickel for someone who don't believe all the Bible but just the parts he can understand which with you would be none of the above because you don't even have the true Word of God. I was a Satanist and I stole a Holy King James Bible to use in a satanic ritual when I opened it up the Holy Ghost put me under conviction pointed me to the lord Jesus Christ and I got saved instead. I was not looking to get saved the day I got saved and I was not willing to get saved until the Holy Ghost got through with me and then He made me willing. I was not in church trying to make some decision But God invaded my hell and saved me amen.
So I don't know anything about the Bible because I quote from a version you don't like, is that right? I am glad that God used the King James Bible that you stoled to save you, but did you ever think what would have happened if it had been a NIV you stole?
I quote from the NIV because it is easier for people to understand. I read about 5 different versions. I find your comments about me and my use of the NIV rude and distasteful and lacking in love, but that is up to you. If you want to use the KJV exclusively that is up to you, but don't question my Bible knowledge or my salvation because I choose to quote out of a version you don't like.
I don't disagree with the passages you mentioned, but you are being pretty short sighted if you stop there. I hate the doctrine of predestination as taught by Calvinist, but I don't disagree that the Bible mentions predestination. You probably don't see the difference so I will try to explain it to you. I will from here on out quote from both the KJV and the NIV so you can see if there is a major difference or not. Before I start, let me address that for a moment.
You wrote me 5 times and each time you came from a different page on my site. On those five pages I have quoted somewhere between 15 and 20 passages of Scripture (yes from the NIV). Not once did you refute what the passage said that I quoted. If the NIV is such a horrible translation, you should have shown me what the KJV says to refute that horrible translation I use, but you didn't. Why? Because they say the same thing in different words and you know that. That is why I will quote both from here on out.
Okay back to predestination. Yes the Bible talks about it, but it is not as clear cut as you seem to think. In fact you told me you would not give a plug nickel for anyone who only takes what they like from God's word, yet that is what you are doing.
Predestination as taught by Calvin means that a person has no choice in the matter, God chooses who will spend eternity in heaven and who will spend eternity in hell. My problem with that is it goes against too many other passages in Scripture where God says He gives us a choice. Let me quote a couple of them:
(Ezekiel 18:30-32 NIV)  "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.  Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel?  For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"
(Ezekiel 18:30-32 KJV)  Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.  Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?  For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
These passages show choice in both the KJV and the NIV. It also shows that God takes no pleasure in the death of those who choose to reject Him. Now if God is the one who decides who goes to hell, then He is lying in these passages because He would take pleasure in their death and torment or He would save them.
(Ezekiel 33:11 NIV) Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'
(Ezekiel 33:11 KJV) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Again this passage in both versions shows choice on the part of the person. Is God a liar? Of course not, so now your pretty little box is split wide open and God can no longer fit in it. Do I totally understand how free choice and predestination work together? No, I don't. But I do know they have to or Scripture is not consistent and I know it is consistent.
(2 Peter 3:9 NIV) The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9 KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Why would God be patient if He was the one making all the decisions? He wouldn't be, He would just choose and be done with it.
That is why I hate the doctrine of predestination as taught by Calvinist, because it makes God out to be a liar and a being who has a dark side. A side that would create billions of beings just to condemn them to eternal torment. I will not argue the point that God has the right to do that, of course He does, but that is not who He says He is.
(1 John 1:5 NIV) This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
(1 John 1:5 KJV) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
Is there darkness in God? He says there isn't, yet to believe that He will not allow people to come to Him but would condemn them to eternal torment without any kind of hope, while saving others, who are just as guilty is darkness. I praise God that He loved me enough to send His Son to die in my place, but I also praise Him that He loved the whole world enough to offer that salvation to them too.
Dear Ralph if a man commits suicide and He has been born again he will die and go to heaven if you don't believe ask Samson in Hebrews who took his own life. Ask Saul whom Samuel said today you will be with me. I think the first thing that would probably help you would be to beg God to born you into the family of God the more I read of your religion the more I come to the conclusion that you are a modern day Pharisee who will die and go to hell if He don't give up all his preconceived notions about God and beg God to open your eyes and do an operation upon your ears that you might beable to understand the truth amen amen amen amen
Well there you go again questioning my salvation. If you believe in predestination, then you have a problem, because if God predestined me to go to heaven, then it does not matter what I believe or what I teach, and if He has not predestined me to go to heaven, then all my praying will be meaningless. See what a problem your doctrine causes? Your heart tells you that I need to pray for forgiveness, but your doctrine claims it is not up to me.
The two examples of suicide you used are meaningless. First let's start with Samson. I would agree with you that he will be in heaven, but did he really commit suicide? No, if you read the story, he prayed and asked God and God granted him his wish. That means it was not suicide in the truest sense of the word. Suicide is when a person takes their own life by their own choice. So Samson is not a point in case.
Now how about Saul? Will Saul be in heaven? I don't think so. You seem to think so because of what Samuel told him when he had the medium contact Samuel. There are two major problems with that idea. First we don't know for sure that it was really Samuel that spoke to Saul, it could have been a demon, but for the sake of argument let's say it was really Samuel.
Does the fact that it was Samuel and that he told Saul that he (Saul) would be with him (Samuel) the next day mean that Saul was going to heaven? No it doesn't. Does that mean that Samuel was in hell? No it doesn't. Let's look at a story that Jesus told and see if it gives us the answer:
(Luke 16:19-26 NIV)  "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.  At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores  and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.  In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.  So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.  And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
(Luke 16:19-26 KJV)  There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:  And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,  And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.  And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;  And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.  And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.  And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
I only quoted part of the story, but it is enough to show what I am talking about. Lazarus and the rich man were both in what the Jews call Hades, yet they were in separate compartments, one is torment and one is paradise. So even if this were Samuel who was speaking to Saul it does not mean that Saul was headed for paradise, it just meant that he would be in Hades the next day and Samuel was there already.
Saul is certainly not a good example of eternal security. Now just to tie up the loose ends of this. People went to Hades before Christ died and opened up the way to God the Father. Lazarus, Abraham, Samuel, all the Old Testament believers went to Paradise. In fact look at this:
(Luke 23:43 NIV) Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
(Luke 23:43 KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Jesus not only told the story of Lazarus and the rich man, but He told this man that he would be with Him in paradise that very day. Now when Jesus died the curtain in the temple separating the Holy of Holies from the rest of the Temple was split from top to bottom. Why? Because up until that time, only the High Priest could enter the "presence" of God in the Holy of Holies and he could only go in once a year with a blood sacrifice. But Jesus being the prefect sacrifice opened the way for all of us to approach God.
Believers who die today do not go to Hades, they go straight to heaven to be with Christ. That is only possible because of Jesus' death.
Dear Ralph I have read some more and I am convinced that you are off the deep end and you don't know beans about the Word of God "Well I know that is so because you don't even know which book is the Bible" When we sin God chastises us and if you are without chastisement you are a bastard and not a son OK. You cant lose something that never belonged to you to start with. It is a free gift illustrated by God killing that innocent lamb in the garden of Eden and giving it to Adam and Eve as a covering. All they had to do was take it and God didn't say now if you backslide IM gonna take it back. No and anyway if I did believe like you I would take a gun and shoot my brains out I guess because of the fact that if you can get salvation today and you sin and lost it tomorrow then their remains no sacrifice for sins sais the word of God and you would be doomed. I am leaving your web site you are a nut that needs to beg God that you might be born again in the family of God
Well you have read at least 5 of my pages and you still have no idea what I believe. I have stated over and over again that I don't believe a person can lose their salvation. I do, however, believe that they can choose to give it up by not continuing in the faith. Again you attack me about the version of the Bible I use, without showing any passages which are incorrect that I quoted. Salvation is a free gift, but does it being a free gift mean we can't choose to give it back? Of course not. I have no idea what your point about chastisement is. I don't disagree that God chastises His children, so what?
In fact it helps make my point. If we sin, the Holy Spirit will convict us and we can choose to either ignore Him or repent of our sins. If we choose to ignore Him, He will chastise us, but why? Is it punishment? If it is punishment for our sins, then you have another major problem with your doctrine.
Both OSAS and Calvinism (predestination/perseverance of the Saints) claim that when we are saved our sins are forgiven past, present, and future. Now if that is true then we need to see what God has to say about forgiveness:
(Psalm 103:11-12 NIV)  For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him;  as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
(Psalm 103:11-12 KJV)  For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.  As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
So God has removed our sins as far as east is from west, yet He punishes us for them?
(Hebrews 8:12 NIV) For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.
(Hebrews 8:12 KJV) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
So if Jesus paid our debt in full and God says He will remove our sins as far as east is from west and not remember our sins anymore, how is it that He punishes us for them when they happen? If all our sins were forgiven and forgotten by God the moment we were saved, even if we had not yet committed them, then He would not remember them or punish us for them. However, on the other hand if we are required to continue in the faith, then chastisement would be for the same reason we chastise our children, to keep them on the right road, not as punitive punishment.
I find your comment about putting a gun to your head if you believed what I believe comical. I find it comical because that is what people tell me about OSAS. See, life is hard and most of us at one point or another would like to just get to heaven now and not wait on the Lord. My belief is that a person who in continuing in the faith will put God first and what He wants first, so no matter how badly I would like to go to heaven today, it is not my choice. It is up to God when and how I get there. But if I believed that no matter what I did I would end up in heaven then why not kill myself and be rid of the struggles in this life? Why not go to be with my Lord today instead of later?
You seem to think I have no assurance of my salvation. Of course you also think I don't have salvation, so I guess that should not surprise me. I will tell you I have assurance of my place in heaven and that assurance is sure and secure. In fact I am eternally secure as long as I want to follow Christ. I don't have to keep my salvation, Christ keeps me, but if I were to choose to follow the world and turn from Christ, He would convict me and chastise me but in the end it would be my decision whether to continue to follow Him or follow the world.
Ralph One more thing before I go The Bible sais in 1 John 1:8 I said the Bible not that perverted version that you use that is sending this world to hell and is part of the great falling away. But true Scripture sais these words "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." According to you if we sin then we lose our salvation and are lost again but according to the Bible if we say we have no sin we make God a liar and the truth is not in us so therefore if the truth is not in us were lost. I am glad that God hath made it plain in His Holy Word that you will sin and fall short and if we will confess our sins he is faithful and just to cleanse us our sins and to forgive us.... The Bible doesn't say if we sin the Holy Ghost has got to come and convict you of your sins again and you have to be born again. You can only be born again One time. You cant climb back in your mamas womb and do it every day and since we sin everyday that is what would have to take place according to you. I am glad that I have the truth of Almighty Gods Word and it amuses me to run into a religious nut that probably has never been truly born again and if He is he hasn't grown past infancy good day
It is sad that you just can't seem to understand what my position is. I don't believe that if we sin we lose our salvation, but I do believe that sin is a symptom of a deeper disease. If we sin and the Holy Spirit convicts us of that sin and we refuse to repent and confess it before God, then we start to separate ourselves from Him. That is exactly what this passage is talking about:
(Hebrews 10:26-27 NIV)  If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,  but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
(Hebrews 10:26-27 KJV)  For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
If we choose to continue to sin and reject Christ, then we give up our security and our salvation.
I am appalled by the teaching that we all sin every day. If a person's life is characterized by daily sin, then they need to get right with God, because He frees us from sin:
(Romans 6:16-18 NIV)  Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey-whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?  But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.  You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
(Romans 6:16-18 KJV)  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
In the NIV it says we have been set free from sin, in the KJV it says being then made free from sin. They both say that we are free from sin and slaves or servants of righteousness. If you are still a slave to daily sin, then take your own advise and pray about it. The Bible (both versions) tell us we should not be sinning everyday.
(1 John 5:3-5 NIV)  This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,  for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.  Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
(1 John 5:3-5 KJV)  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.  Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
If you are not overcoming the world then again you need to check your heart and get right with God. When we do stumble and fall and sin, then yes He is faithful to forgive us if we want forgiven. This again goes back to the idea that there is no need for forgiveness if our sins are already forgiven the moment we were saved. Your doctrine runs into another problem here, but I guess you don't see it.
You called me a nut and that is okay, but as I said earlier I sure don't see the love of Christ coming through your letters to me. You also talk about being born again and then make the statement that we can't keep going back into our mama's womb to be born again. You sound a little like Nicodemus before Jesus straightened him out. We are born once of an earthly mother, but to be born again, means to be born of the Spirit not of the womb. We are born by the Spirit because before that we were dead in our sins. Now if we choose to die again and live in our sins, why wouldn't we need to be born again of the Spirit to be alive again?
I understand that we disagree on interpretation of this issue, but calling me a heretic and a nut serves no purpose other than showing what is in your heart.
Dear sir if you are not a heretic and truly born again then God be praised but today for the most part those that are teaching things learned not from the Holy Ghost and the Bible but learned from traditions of men and the most part they cant endure sound doctrine. I hope for your sake that you are truly born again but usually if a man cant get in the Bible and find the truth He is a heretic and in your case you don't even know which book is the Bible but you carry a perverted Bible so no wonder your confused hell it looks like has handed you a religion have a nice day and my hearts desire is that you would either come to know the Lord or grow out of the state of infancy and believe the Word of God
If that were your true desire then you would approach me in love not attack the way you do.
You make statements and then don't back them up with anything. You mention not learning things from God or the Bible but from the traditions of men, yet I have quoted many passages of Scripture and you have not addressed even one of them. I think you should more closely examine your motives.
I will not cast my pearles before you. You are joined to your Idols and I will let you alone. How can 2 walk to gather unless they be agreed? I cant and refuse to walk with you and I have marked you.
This is a sad commentary on your view. I agree that we disagree on some major issues, like Bible versions and eternal security, but I believe we both believe that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and Him alone. I guess that agreement is not enough for you to walk with me. I am sorry you feel that way. What will you do when we both end up in heaven; ask to be separated from me and those who interpret the Scriptures differently than you do, or read a different version of God's word than you did?
You have called me a nut, a heretic and questioned my maturity and even my salvation, but I want you to know I hold no hard feelings against you, I just hope you will open your mind and heart a little bit to your brothers and sisters in Christ. I am sure there are those who read nothing but the KJV who disagree with you on some issues, would you treat them the same way?
I do want to address your idol comment, because again I find it comical. If I ran around claiming that the NIV was the ONLY word of God, you would have a valid point, but I don't. I read and study multiple versions and find God's truth in all of them. I often consult another version when I come across something that is difficult to understand. You on the other hand claim that only the KJV is the word of God. Which one of us has an idol?
I pray that you would check your heart and see why you are so antagonistic towards someone who names the same Lord and Savior you do.
E-Mail Ralph (whose comments are in green)